Clemens Hoer Tablaturbuch

I am delighted (and comforted) by this beautiful instrument, music and performance.
Alas, I can’t find the Clemens Hoer manuscript in any written form.
Does anyone know where it or a transcription can be found?

Hi Ed,

A spot of googling revealed this recording (I searched for Hor not Hoer, as that can sometimes work better when accents are involved, even though you would think they could deal with that nowadays):

https://www.discogs.com/release/11551421-René-Clemencic-Historic-Tablatures-Tabulatur-des-Clemens-Hör

According to that record, it’s:

Tabulatur Des Clemens Hör (Abt. 1515-1572) - (MS. Zurich, Zentralbibliothek, Z.XI.301)

So I imagine you could contact the Central Library in Zurich to get a copy. The big libraries will usually do that for you.

For what it’s worth, that album is available on Apple Music, amazingly.

There is an edition of the Hör tabulatures (a doctoral dissertation, I think with facsimile):

Joachim Marx (ed.), Die Orgeltabulatur des Clemens Hör : (Ms. Zürich, Zentralbibliothek, Z.XI.301)

Basel : Bärenreiter 1970 (Schweizerische Musikdenkmäler vol.7)

But it’s expensive: €200 to buy new from Bärenreiter.

There is an entry on Hör in the 2001 Grove encyclopedia but not my 1980 Grove ed. Presumably also one in Musik in

Geschichte und Gegenwart, if you have access to that.

Michael

From my looking it appears to be out of print at Barenreiter (maybe this is wrong?)

I am unable to find vol. 7 of this Swiss series in any library in Australia despite deep search. I cant find it on abe books, alibiris, or any other seller. Amazon lists it but says currently unavailable.

Michael, do you know of anywhere we can access this volume?

I don’t know where Ed Sutton is located, but here in Europe there are some libraries holding the Schweizerische Musikdenkmäler volume containing Hor music, while of course the source is in the Zurich Zentralbibliothek as noted by Andrew.
For example, the Bibliothéque Nationale in Paris, France, holds a copy of the printed volume: Notice bibliographique Tabulaturen des XVI. Jahrhunderts, Teil 2 : die Orgeltabulatur des Clemens Hör (Ms. Zürich, Zentralbibliothek, Z.XI.301), herausgegeben von Hans Joachim Marx | BnF Catalogue général - Bibliothèque nationale de France

Other libraries holding a copy you can find here on Worldcat:
https://www.worldcat.org/title/tabulaturen-des-xvi-jahrhunderts/oclc/729375068
and
Request Rejected.

Worldcat doesn’t list Italian libraries, so please add to the above lists three Italian libraries which hold the book:
https://opac.sbn.it/opacsbn/opac/iccu/scheda.jsp?bid=IT\ICCU\UBO\3800243

and

https://opac.sbn.it/opacsbn/opac/iccu/scheda.jsp?bid=IT\ICCU\MOD\0752591

All I can say is the people at the Cremona library used to be very helpful, but I haven’t been in touch with them since many years so I just don’t know how it is now.

The printed volume is out of print and unfindable, maybe the copyright is expired (sorry I don’t know about expiry times in the various parts of the world) and maybe one of the libraries could be willing to make a pdf or photocopies?

Domenico

I forgot to write that the Schweizerische Musikdenkmäler is a series issued by the Schweizerischen Musikforschenden Gesellschaft (Switzerland Musicological Society), maybe they can tell you something on how to get a copy or photocopy and about the copyright issues.
Their website: Schweizerische Musikdenkmäler - Schweizerische Musikforschende Gesellschaft

AND, best of all, I have now found that the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris has the “Reproduction request” button active for this book. So you can just fill in the form and click “Envoyer”. You can ask for a partial or integral reproduction and for various formats: PDF, photocopies, images… And as for delivery you can ask for download or surface mail.
Of course they could still reply the book is still under copyright, but I think it’s worth trying. This link will lead you to the reproduction page request: BnF : Espace personnel
(in French)

Domenico

No, sorry for my third post, the link doesn’t work properly.
You just have to go to the page of the catalogue for the book: Notice bibliographique Tabulaturen des XVI. Jahrhunderts, Teil 2 : die Orgeltabulatur des Clemens Hör (Ms. Zürich, Zentralbibliothek, Z.XI.301), herausgegeben von Hans Joachim Marx | BnF Catalogue général - Bibliothèque nationale de France
and click on “Reproduction sous conditions” which links to the request form.

Domenico

Hi Andrew,
Sorry for the delayed resopnse- it seems my mail replies to jackrail are being blocked somewhere (it’s a university site and they are still reeling from a cyber attack) so I have to reply from the jackrail page. Hi Andrew,

I don’t have a copy of Hör and haven’t seen one, and there certainly won’t be one in Ireland- I thought I’d found just one expensive second-hand copy on sale in South Germany:

Musikantiquariat Bernd Katzbichler
but it seems it has been sold, as the link is dead.

Domenico’s search suggestions are all good. If anybody who reads this is living in Germany, Austria (David P?) or Switzerland, I am sure they can get access to a copy through their library system without difficulty. Maybe Australia has stronger connections with the British Library who might be able to send scans.
And copies may turn up from time to time on German bookseller sites: zvab.de or booklooker.de.
If you want the extra work of reading the original tabulatures, I’m sure Zürich can help with scans of those.
Or you could try contacting Professor Marx himself in Hamburg, who was still publishing in 2015 and may be pleased that there is interest in Clemens Hör. There is a Wikipedia entry on Professor Marx.

Michael

The Biblioteque Nationale has this entry in the description of the Marx Dissertation

Auteur(s) : Sermisy, Claudin de (1490?-1562). Compositeur présumé

Titre(s) : Lay qui moy fay

Autre(s) forme(s) du titre :

  • Autre forme du titre : Languir me fais

IMSLP offered this four-part chanson:Languir me fais (Sermisy, Claudin de) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download, which is very close to the Hoer intabulation and will meet my current need to just play the piece.

And also a 1530 intabulation by Attaingnant https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/e/ee/IMSLP125378-WIMA.afd9-Sermisy_Languir.pdf which I find almost incoherent.

Thanks for the help!

Thanks for the links. Sermisy arrangements are supposed to follow their chanson text very closely, eg using melodic repetitions to correspond to the rhyme scheme (presumably also to the ideas or emotions). So it will be fun to compare with Marot’s text when I play them. Here it is in an unchecked version which I pulled off the internet:

Languir me fais sans t’avoir offensée:
Plus ne m’escriptz, plus de moy ne t’enquiers;
Mais non obstant, aultre Dame ne quiers:
Plus tost mourir que changer ma pensée.

Je ne dy pas t’amour estre effacée,
Mais je me plains de l’ennuy que j’acquiers,
Et loing de toy humblement te requiers
Que loing de moy, de moy ne sois faschée.

(You make me languish without my having offended you:
no longer do you write or ask after me.
Nevertheless I do not want another lady;
rather die than change my opinion!

I don’t say your love has been erased;
but do protest about the bother which I’ve had,
and humbly, far from you, I request
that, far from me, you may not be angry at me.)
Michael

Fascinating! Your comment really opens understanding of this piece.
The text is identical to Marot’s.
The settings of the first and fourth lines are identical, homophonic and declarative in affect.
The second and third lines shape the intertwined emotions “kept in control.”
Someone more knowledgable than me could make a proper analysis.
I think this is a piece that will grow more and more wonderful with familiarity.

Oh, right, I misspoke when I said that I played them without reference
to the original chanson. I meant without reference to the original vocal
parts (voice leading, for examplel). The texts are crucial. I printed
them with translations in the program notes.

The AIM edition helpfully has the original chanson printed above the
keyboard intabulations, which makes for frequent page turns.

The Attaignant intabulations are all available on IMSLP:

https://imslp.org/wiki/19_Chansons_musicales_reduictes_en_la_tabulature_(Attaingnant%2C_Pierre)

https://imslp.org/wiki/25_Chansons_musicales_reduictes_en_la_tabulature_(Attaingnant%2C_Pierre)

https://imslp.org/wiki/26_Chansons_musicales_reduictes_en_la_tabulature_(Attaingnant%2C_Pierre)

I’m fond of them, especially on clavichord. Have performed a few (on
h’chord) successfully (I think) in recital without being didactic about
it; that is, as stand-alone pieces without reference to the original.

Hi Andrew,
Sorry, I’m afraid I don’t have a copy and there certainly won’t be one in Ireland- I could find just one second-hand copy on sale in South Germany for €212 plus postage:

Musikantiquariat Bernd Katzbichler
über
Buchfreund.de
But when I clicked on the “order” link it was dead presumably sold.
| Verlag: Basel, Bärenreiter 1970.
Versand D: 5,00 EUR |

  • | - |

If anybody who reads this is living in Germany, Austria (David P?) or Switzerland, I am sure they can get access to a copy through their library system without difficulty.

Michael

Resending as I think the first sending didn’t work:

There is an edition of the Hör tabulatures (a doctoral dissertation, I think with facsimile of the MS):

Joachim Marx (ed.), Die Orgeltabulatur des Clemens Hör : (Ms. Zürich, Zentralbibliothek, Z.XI.301)

Basel : Bärenreiter 1970 (Schweizerische Musikdenkmäler vol.7)

But expensive: €200 to buy new from Bärenreiter.

There is an entry on Hör in the 2001 Grove encyclopedia and presumably also in Musik in

Geschichte und Gegenwart (Personenteil section), if you have access to that.

Michael

Oh, there’s a copy of the Bärenreiter edition in a nearby university
library, but they’re not allowing access to it right now due to covid.
Once they ease up, it might be possible to make copies available. I’ll
advise in this space of any developments.

There is an edition of the Hör tabulatures (a doctoral dissertation, I think with facsimile):

Joachim Marx (ed.), Die Orgeltabulatur des Clemens Hör : (Ms. Zürich, Zentralbibliothek, Z.XI.301)

Basel : Bärenreiter 1970 (Schweizerische Musikdenkmäler vol.7)

But pi: €200 to buy new from Bärenreiter.

There is an entry on Hör in the 2001 Grove encyclopedia but not my 1980 ed. Presumably also in Musik in

Geschichte und Gegenwart, if you have access to that.

Michael